Topic Title: Grahf and Krelian Talk
| |  "Grahf and Krelian Talk"
, Sun 29 Apr 06:16 : |
Reply Edited |
`````I'm on a Posting spree!
`````I'm free of the abuse of a certain nasty Posting/Profile Revisor!
`````I really feel in a nice mood right now! I could hop around and just start a bunch of topics and maybe someone'll actually listen here! Heh. :)
`````Well, okay, maybe a number of people won't, but there's always hope, and I'd like to stick with the illusion of false happiness while it lasts. There may be people here who I haven't talked to on the other areas of the Board that'll tolerate me, though, so maybe this will be nice. I hope the exhilaration from being free from Mr. Contact stays around... Oh, until June when the last ESCAFLOWNE tapes come out. :)
`````Not likely, but one can always hope, eh?
The next topic:
`````I remember something I spoke with my friend Nanaki about concerning Krelian. He said he could find Grahf's motives believeable but not Krelian's and claimed, if I was remember correctly, that was because Grahf was more direct and Krelian was more manipulative. Needless to say, we spent quite the few Electronic Mails and, I believe, mIRC Chat sessions arguing this, and I loved every minute of it. Those were the days... No, do not reflect on the past or you know what may happen... *Squelches memories.*
`````I personally didn't agree Lacan was all that direct either, but what do you all think?
`````Oh, yes, and another thing: In the discussions with Nanaki he pointed out a certain opposite polarity in our views on Lacan and Krel that, if I remember correctly, he found interesting. He viewed Krelian as a selfish person concerned only with becoming one with God so *he* would be able to escape from his pain, if I remember correctly (or was that so he would find comfort? I don't remember?), that his justifications, if I remember what he said right, were excuses for his real reasons to becoming one with God, while I viewed him as a would-be savior of the whole human race. He viewed Lacan as a would-be savior of the whole human race while I viewed Lacan as doing what he did for the sake of a single woman... Elly, to free her from eternal reincarnation.
`````What do you all think of these points?
Paul
"I think you seem to have somehow accepted, right off the bat, that Krelian had the best intentions at heart just because Elly said those words about him after fighting him. My mind, however, maintained a great deal of skepticism."-Nanaki Setoson
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[this message was edited by Shinji Ikari on Mon 30 Apr 10:30]
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| Registered: Sat 24 Mar 2001 6:0 |  |
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| | "Re(1):Grahf and Krelian Talk" , Sun 29 Apr 19:13 | Message #146
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hmmmm.....
Well if both their motives are a bit exagerated. I doubt that a single event would cause any moral individual to abadon morality like they apperead to do so, but then we have so little information to base or analysis on.
KRELIAN:
Krelian apparently had emotional problems as a kid. He found his solace in Elly. She sort of became as a mother to him. Like a son he followed her teaching beliving her as all good and can do no wrong. Like a child he probably subscribed to her world view completely. Then everything went wrong. Krelian watched as all he loved and knew was destroyed. Everything he cared about, his values, his ideals, his world view, and the only people he cared about were destroyed by humans, humans who in their depravity did not understand.
At first it makes sense for him to take action. Realising the world was not the thing he saw he sought to create it. Seperated from the rest of man be intelligence, a shell of his own construction and now his contempt of every ally he once had he struck out on his own path.
(I imagine he first turned to Lacan, but Lacan was lost in his own way, Barts ancestor was more intrested in restablishing order rebuilding and defending himself. He probably just left seeking someone or anyone to help him. I bet that Cain then heard of his quest for an ideal world and brought him to discuss a methode, Cain himself wanting a means of redemption for his failure)
His path though twisted. He found out the truth. It probably shocked him to the core to find out that everything else he belived was useless. However one belife remained rock solid, Science. My guess is he turned to this a solution and begain studying how to rebuild humanity as a better people.
Needless to say in 500 years you need to do a little politicing. Being a quiet guy, manipulation is the perfered path. For whatever the reason he had to do "things" to get the resources he needed for his goals. I bet his origional intent was only to raise Dues for the ability to manipulate human genetics to prevent atrocities.
After 500 years most of his morality was washed away. Seeing every person you know pass away and replaced over and over, and over agian does not lend much to the view of the individual. He probaly at the end did see humans as an animal an animal he would bring to greatness by taking them to a perfect state. To be one with god. (At the latest stage this is in reference to WE)
LACAN
Lacan is a little odder and more human. He when sophia died found out what true emptiness was like. He had no reason to live and probably would have killed himself without Miang manipulation. However maing gave him a purpose she convinced him that he should seek out 'the power' as doing so was the only way he could accomplish Elly's dream and accomplish her last wish.
So he did. WE probably helped Miang convice his contact to come. When he found WE the truth was revealed. He was swalloed by the pain of the previous contacts pain at Elly's loss. It was like they where the universes cruel joke the only way to escape it was to destroy everything. It probably had a certain appeal as doing so would make the people responsible pay for their deeds. Never underestimate revenge as a motivator.
Lost in his anger and probably driven insane by the contact itself he begain to destroy, and destroy, and destroy. At some point he realized what he had done (remeber the scene where he is in front of his gear looking around saying 'did I do this?')
At that point he probably for the most part stopped the diablos invasion after finishing off a few 'select' strikes against those he really did not like (the gazel). At this point he probably vanished.
I don't belive the story of the 'diablos' defeat. It smacks to much of propaganda. It is never good for a country (or contries) to admit they where helpless. Even if they did it really does not matter.
If he did die his will to Live probably forced the first Transmigration. If he didn't he probably chose to do so later when he body started to age. Whether he gained the ability from WE as Id implied or from Miang is another question.
After spending some time just thinking about the knowledge granted by Zohar he probably figured out what he need to do to acheive his goals. To Free himself from the cycle. How he wanted to acheive this is a major question. Many have said that he could not acheive it with his gear which is probably right. However Deus could and if so why did he want to kill dues?
My guess is that he knew that by destroyind dues he would release Zohar and destroy the world literally, or that if he ressurected and destroyed deus he could use the deus sub-systems for his goals (as in control the seraphim). The latter is acutaly a quite distint possiblitity.
Whatever the reason his last goals required him to:
1) resurect Dues
2) Fuse with the contact
3) Destroy Dues
beyond that it is anyone's guess.
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| | "Re(1):Grahf and Krelian Talk" , Sun 29 Apr 17:49 | Message #144
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I believe that the motivations of Lacan and Krelian had their similarities and their vast differences.
Krelian: From the game, we have all the indications that Sophia was a major force of change in his life and so of course, what she valued came to matter to him a great deal. Sophia didn't want to become an idol in people's eyes, but I think that's precisely what she came to be to Krelian. He internalized what he thought were her beliefs and when her death flew in the face of that...well.
Can you imagine the rage? That the person who had so deeply touched your life, who was trying to make the world better for everyone...that this person died and that the circumstances of that death, the sheer fact that it happened at all, seemed to deny everything she had believed in. Krelian wanted to...fix things. To make them right as he thought Sophia wanted them. There needed to be a god for this to happen and so he set about making god. Quite logical really, in a fanatical sort of way.
His views on helping humanity were rather patronizing in the end. It isn't that he didn't mean what he thought the best for them, but he did come to reflect the Solarian views; truly viewing the other people of the world as sheep. He assumed he knew what was best for them, without ever really asking. Maybe because he assumed he was doing what Sophia had wanted and that she had had the people's acceptance.
In short, he had humanity in mind with what he did, but Sophia was the catalyst of that consideration.
Lacan: Lacan did what he did for Elly, not really her persona of Sophia. I don't know at what point Krelian found out about the truth(presumably from Miang), but Lacan knew from the moment of contact with Zohar. He had the realization that this sort of thing had been happening to he and Elly throughout time, individuated from the circumstances that caused the Antitype's death. Whether they were opposing Cain, conducting illicit nanotech research, or fighting Solaris...Elly was killed. It was like they could never win. Where Krelian was mad only on Sophia's behalf(at least initially), Grahf/Lacan had all of time to resent I think this surely fostered a 'to hell with it' attitude on his part. Krelian could go make a god if he wanted to, but I don't think Lacan saw this as fixing things. Elly and he would be born again, they would find themselves in some different circumstance, god or no, and she would die. He wanted surcease.
As for Lacan's directness, I think he may have started out with the hope of accomplishing his goals quickly; thus, the Diablos. But when that failed to wipe out mankind, he probably got the idea that it would take just a tad more work and planning. And that could point to part of the reasoning behind teaming up with Miang: she'd been working the long road for a quite some time and knew the ropes as it were.
*sigh* I've probably forgotten something in there, but ah well.
Isis
"Rydell had a theory about virtual real estate. The smaller and cheaper the physical site of a given operation the bigger and cheesier the website."
-William Gibson; All Tomorrow's Parties
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