Topic Title: Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian
 Rune Grey
Cunning Antagonist |
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|  "Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian"
, Thu 10 May 20:12 |
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Seeing as the other thread is getting rather crowded, I figured that it would be best to start a new thread in order to discuss something that TC brought up in the middle of it.
What is it that makes a 'Great' villain in your eyes?
This is, of course, something that is going to vary from person to person... after all, there are some attributes and aspects of personality that we would consider to be more 'evil' than others, but many of those are our personal opinions. But go ahead and share, and try to explain why you think that your choices would make a 'great' villain. And don't limit yourself to RPGs... also think of literary villains, and villains in real life.
My choices, for example-
Detachment-
The ability to separate ones self from a situation. To reduce other people to being 'resources', and being able to dehumanize them, and simply not feel what other people do. An utter lack of empathy that allows the creation of a justification for *anything*.
Charisma-
Oddly enough, most villains are very attractive, or have great
force of personality. They can inspire people to follow them, even when those people might already realize that it might not be the best idea. Also, the concept that the villain cam help make other people take on the same qualities or believe the same things they do, simply though force of persuasion or personality.
Dedication-
And quite obviously... they can't give up. They have to be willing to pursue a goal to the point of obsession, and not give up their ideals and dreams, no matter how twisted they are.
Oddly enough, an excellent, normal, or even a saintly person could have these same traits... there is just a bit of blackness in some people that makes them into a true villain. So, lets hear from the rest of you.
Rune Grey
~Perpetual Thorn of Logic and Reason
"May I have another fork...?" ~ Legato Bluesummers . Trigun
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| | "Re(1):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Wed 30 May 18:07 PM : | Message #418
Reply Edited |
I believe it was Amber Michelle who said she'd love to see an evil Shitan-sensei. Implying he would make a 'great' villian. And I agree with her.
Here is why.
Detachment:
Hyuga is a scholar. A true Renaissance man. In order to gain so much knowledge in so many areas, one must learn the fine art of detatchment. spoiler: The scene where he draws Ido out is a perfect example. He detaches himself from his emotional connections to Fei and pokes and prods our hero's poor psyche until it cracks, releasing Ido, and why? World domination? The annihilation of life? Nah, Shitan just wanted to talk to him. "it's very rare to talk to a real schizophrenic..."
Charisma:
Who doesn't love Shitan? He has a very disarming and humble manner that makes him instantly likeable. And very dangerous. spoiler: Even Ido is taken by the bespectacled Guardian Angel. "Heh. I like you, 'doc'..."
Dedication:
As a Solarian, Hyuga is loyal to his Emperor. As a -Lamb-, he is compassionate about his people. He is unquestioningly devoted to his wife and daughter, as well as to anyone lucky enough to be considered his friend. Were he more loyal to Solaris than to the surface dwellers or his family or friends, Shitan-sensei might have been a far different character...
Cruelty:
"I should not be the only innocent one." Shitan has blood on his hands, and he knows it. I think given the choice, he'd carry a sakabattou. But no such weapons exist in the cruel and dark world ruled by the Gazel. He learned to kill at a young age, and it comes naturally to him. Even with his bare hands, Hyuga is a deadly warrior. The fact that he is aware of his power, and how much it increases when he carries a sword, makes him that much more powerful.
Elegance:
I refer again to his sword, not for its speed or strength, but its style. He moves with a lanquid grace, befitting the Element of Water. He has a keen sense of fashion, and speaks eloquently. He never uses contractions or vulgarities. His quiet, contemplative manner is elegant in its placidity. Again, like the element he represents. A reflective pool in quiet moments, a raging torrent when facing off against an unfortunate foe.
Devotion:
As I said, Shitan is devoted to his wife and child. I reiterate, were he more a Solarian loyalist, or even just more self-centered, he might have helped the Gazel, or furthered his own ends.
But then, would he be the Shitan-sensei we all know and love?
~Rekhodiah~
aka Cougar_chan
"Have I not commanded you? Be strong and very courageous." - Joshua 1:7
"I am mischevious... it is in my nature. Forgive me."
"My fist is the divine breath..."
[this message was edited by Rekhodiah on Wed 30 May 06:13 PM]
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| | | "Re(2):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Thu 31 May 08:04 PM | Message #428
Replied to #418 |
I think Citan is always loyal to Cain, not the Gazel. Maybe he'll be a villain if Cain is a villain... I still like this part of Citan. He's not the conventional hot-headed self-righteous hero, he's a completely loyal soldier from the beginning to the end. I think Myaru once said she'd like to see Citan betray Solaris, I strongly disagree, if they really made Citan that way then he'll be another stereotypical "intelligent sidekick" (as opposed to "idiotic sidekick"). I like Citan as he is in the game, he's one of my favorite RPG character.
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.
- John Milton Paradise Lost
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| | | "Re(3):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Fri 1 Jun 10:39 AM | Message #439
Replied to #428 |
By idiotic sidekick, you mean Bart don't you ;)
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| | | "Re(4):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Fri 1 Jun 04:24 PM | Message #443
Replied to #439 |
you got it :)
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.
- John Milton Paradise Lost
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| | | "Re(2):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Thu 31 May 02:08 PM | Message #425
Replied to #418 |
Hmm... Well, you do make some good points. As to Citan (I played the American version, and I will always call him Citan. Even after I learn Japanese) being a bad guy, one very important thing is missing.
A drive, a goal, and the willingness to do anything for such. As you said, he was extremely loyal to his family, his emperor, and his companions. But, (to me at least) that loyalty seemed based more on moral and idealogical agreement than some sort of blind devotion. He was loyal to Emperor Cain because he believed in the same things he did, not just because he was the Emperor. Even if what you said about his hands being bloodstained is true, idealogically he finds it abhorrent. I suppose what I'm saying is that such a large part of his personality is his beliefs, changing them would make him a totally different character.
As to fans liking him because he had the potential to be a bad guy... I disagree. One of the few twists of the Xenogears storyline that I saw coming from miles away was that the 'doc' would be set up to be a suspected traitor. And I knew from the beginning that he would end up true to Fei and team. Parts of his personality certainly fit the schema of a good bad guy... but Citan himself is very much a good guy, no doubt about it.
-feithecontact
"Does the word 'duty' justify all of this?"
Posts: 9
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| | | "Re(3):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Thu 31 May 02:22 PM | Message #426
Replied to #425 |
You make a good point.
But Zelda pointed out that he walks the fine line between 'good' and 'evil'. Had something terrible or traumatic occured to twist his psyche, to give it the drive and focus that existed with Ido and Krelian, he would have been a villian to rival either of them.
I didn't doubt Shitan's loyalties, either. But what is fascinating is the *possibility* of his turning... the fact that he can walk that line and survive. The difference, perhaps, is that the guiding principle of the Gazel are their minds and logic. Ido and Krelian, by their near-animalistic passions.
For Hyuga, he is guided by his heart.
~Rekhodiah~
aka Cougar_chan
"Have I not commanded you? Be strong and very courageous." - Joshua 1:7
"I am mischevious... it is in my nature. Forgive me."
"My fist is the divine breath..."
Posts: 5
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| | "Re(1):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Mon 28 May 07:12 PM | Message #396
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*in response to a post from feithecontact that was in the wrong topic*
St. Ajora? Bah... some Jesus cheap imitator... Altima sucked...
One of the few good villains in FFT was Marquis Elmdor, dubbed Marquis Sephirot by some people (white hair...the sword...). He seemed relentless, and had the power to be a good oponnent... specially when he was killing that sucky Rafa in one cut. He also had good sidekicks.
Hey let's revive this topic... I just played Valkyrie Profile, and I want to analyze Lezard Valeth... he was in the game too little IMO, and then he can join you (for what the heck anyway, bleh...). But, despite his HORRIBLE voice (I wanna find the guy who dubbed him and set him on fire), he had some good aspects... starting with the detachtament from humanity... except from Leneth that is.
"My soul burns...My power has awaken!"-Aelia
Posts: 349
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| | | "Re(2):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Mon 28 May 07:49 PM | Message #400
Replied to #396 |
What do you mean, in the wrong topic? I'm pretty sure I put it where I meant to...
You coerced me into staying up past my bed time, mentioning me in a post so that I had to reply! Waaah! And I've got rehearsal early tomorrow! *sniff* ^_^
-feithecontact
"Does the word 'duty' justify all of this?"
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| | | "Re(4):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Tue 29 May 14:39 PM : | Message #409
Reply Edited |
Well, that topic had gotten off the topic of arrogance and onto the topic of best villains, and I hadn't read this topic.
Besides, I don't think this topic (now that I look at it) actually says anything about the best villains...
But still, my vote remains the same: Id. Even based just on his looks, Id wins. Besides, about time we had a villain who ripped giant robots apart with his bare hands. Who needs weapons? And his one-liners beat Kefka's any day (I always thought Kefka sounded like some idiot drooling about breaking things...).
Not to mention the whole spoiler:Id is Fei deal.
I forget who mentioned him, but Magneto was also a pretty cool badguy... X-Men, one of the few american comics I ever liked... the problem with american comics is they try to make them last too long. Tell your story and get it over with, not stick with it for 20 years because it sells... Anime's a good example, most of the best ones are 13 or 26 episodes long. Kay, that was waaaay off topic. Now that I think about it, fits with the rest of the posts here very well. ^_^
But anyway, my qualifications for the best villains:
1) A human side. The Crawling Chaos or the Essence of Destruction or the All-Powerful-God-of-Breaking-Things-and-Making-People-Unhappy can sometimes be cool, but I prefer a villain with real reasons for what he does, his own set of morals and ideals, and his own flaws. Of course, that doesn't mean he can't kick @ss. All good villains do that. -_^
2) Details. Appearances. I want to know about the villains. They are often just as interesting as the main characters (or have the potential to be so), so tell me about 'em! Don't have them pop in at the end of the game and say 'here I am, I'm the one you wanna fight!' *coughcoughFF9cough*
3) Looks. Yep. The baddies have just gotta look cool. What's the point otherwise?
4) Some sort of psychological/symbolic meaning/purpose/power. Kinda hard to explain. Sephie messin' with Cloud's head. Id um... you know. To take an example from Eva, Gendo.
That's my idea of a cool villain. My favorites? Id, Krellian, Gendo, Sephiroth, Shishio (ruroken), Tres (GW). Of course there's many more, but that's off the top of my head.
Edit: Oops, forgot Ramsus. Yep, good example of the human side (#1 above).
-feithecontact
"Does the word 'duty' justify all of this?"
[this message was edited by feithecontact on Wed 30 May 05:15 AM]
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| | "Re(1):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Fri 18 May 01:53 | Message #285
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I think I'll break the mold here and announce to everyone that I do NOT make a good villain. Poor saps - you know that trying will only push you farther away from your goal of evil. ^.^
So let's see how I measure up:
Detachment:
I don't give a damn about most people or their feelings, true... but unfortunately, there are a few that have moved near and dear to my heart, and that kind of negates the good of being detached from everyone else.
Charisma:
Nope. I'm not good looking enough, and I can't sway people to my way of thinking by sheer presence or personality. Darn it.
Dedication:
This totally depends on the situation and whether or not it's a losing battle. I get touchy when I think that something is going to fail.
Cruelty:
I'm usually not angry enough for this. If I get really pissed off I might be able to fit this requirement, but I'd feel bad afterwords. Stupid conscience.
Elegance:
I wish. Enough said.
Devotion:
Isn't this almost the same as 'Dedication'? *shrug* I can be devoted to something I believe in... But I believe in so little these days that it's kind of hard to find an example. That, and the more I learn, the more I change my views on what I should be devoted to.
On the other side of the argument... ^.^ I really don't care about most people, I've managed to garner praise from everyone without lifting a finger, I've maintained GA for three years, I've ripped down more than one idiot in my time, people seem to think I looked goot at AX last year for some reason, and I'm definitely devoted to my current beliefs.
I also have more hostility bottled up than you can possibly believe, especially with the way the last few months have gone for me. Maybe I could stand in for my dear Karellen for a few days just to have some fun...
Ja mata.
Amber Michelle
"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time
"Sore demo wa... itsuka."
- Lezard because he's cool. ^.^
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| | | "Re(2):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Fri 18 May 02:12 | Message #286
Replied to #285 |
The best villains really are the ones who don't try, they just are...... Alas, you are only a villain to some, and they know who they are......
"...and I took the road less traveled by and that has made all the difference."
Robert Frost
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Xylix
The Iron Fist of Reason |
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| "Re(1):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Sun 13 May 14:36 | Message #278
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You need look no further. I am the embodiment of evil, I am the perfect incarnation of villinessness.
A mere look at my Avatar proves it. Can one gaze upon its likeness and not be filled with dark dread? A mere glance just proves the nature of what I am.
Look down a bit and gaze upon the title. The Iron Fist of Reason. Yes that is it. Iron fist, implying forcefull dominance. An iron fist describes the rule of a Tyrant, not a just master. My title alone would imply that I am a villian.
But, this is the very surface of what is. Now gaze upon the named traits and see which ones fit me:
Detachment - I can do this at a whim. I can detatch myself and argue oppinions which I dissagree. I nearly always stand seprate from humanity. It has become not merely an ability, but a day to day event for me to detactch myself and view things without emotion.
By the way, empathy implies the undestanding of emotions or others:
Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives
It does not imply you care. The most frightening villians are the ones that do understand you, but go on reguardless.
Charasima is not an attribute that one can affectively argue one has. If you have it others will know.
Dedication: Of course I have it. How else could I obtain about 250 in 2 months.........
So simply gaze upon me. One has merely to list the attributes that I have to name those that make a great villian:
In addition to the listed
Intelligence: The ability to understand the world around you. The ability to learn and adapt to new situations.
Wit: The ability to out think others, react quickly in changing situations, find a solution that know one expects.
Empathy: The abilty to understand others emotions, (and with detachment and charisma this is frightening)
Reason: Calm and cool not prone to emotion. These people can be more dangerous than any insane uncontrollable villian. Though never quite as evil they are fightening because they understand and still destroy.
-- "Knowlege is gained through experiance. Intelligence is gained through thought. Wisdom is gained through failure. As such it is not surprising that so many of the smartest people are naive."
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Sirus
Pilots Mobile Suit from Men's Wearhouse |
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| "Re(1):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Fri 11 May 17:04 | Message #269
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Great villain, eh? Well, I can't cite any specific examples right now, but here are the aspects I think are crucial to a great villain.
Psychological Warfare-
Personally, i've always enjoyed the villains who like to really screw with the minds of the heroes. I mean, come on, we all had to enjoy the times in FF7 when Sephiroth popped up just to further damage Cloud's fragile mind with information that made no real sense to him. He practically had him squirming in his hands!
Charisma-
Of course, I also like a villain to have a cool personality as well. Not necessarily the kind of person who inspires people to follow him, but a more machiavellian personality, one who uses fear and power to force people to follow him. Thats part of a great villain, IMO.
Cruelty-
Heres a good one, to be truly evil, I think a villain has to be just plain cruel. Subjecting people to horrible methods torture, leaving no one alive in their path, not even women or children. After all, who can't call someone like that pure evil? Now, i've never played Suikoden, but I hear that Lucca Blight fits this very well.
Elegance-
Still, I think it's cool for villains also to maintain a certain degree of civility, a somewhat noble-like demeanor. Kind of like a gentleman, but evil.
Devotion-
The only person I can think of off the top of my head for this category is Magneto from the X-Men. One of the reasons he was such a villain is because he truly thought he was doing the right thing for his fellow mutants. He didn't truly want to hurt any of the other mutants who opposed him, but simply saw them as misguided and wished for them to understand his way and join him.
Granted, you can't put all these qualities into one villain or they'd all kinda cancel eachother out. These are just things i've seen in various villains and have found to be some of their best aspects.
"Geez, do all women like instinctively hate eachother or something?!"
-Eikre
http://rpgworld.keenspace.com/
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| | | "Re(2):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Fri 11 May 14:39 | Message #264
Replied to #250 |
Detachment? EVERYONE is a resource?
...
...
I have been working out there little one 
And I on the other hand, would be a great "good girl"!
"Nyaa nyaa..." - Nihon no Guen
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| | | "Re(4):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Fri 11 May 18:07 | Message #270
Replied to #265 |
Ah, really nice save there.
Kind of like how you can say, "everything is boring to me." While this "everything" doesn't really include me, hm?
sure sure 
"Nyaa nyaa..." - Nihon no Guen
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| | | "Your last words?" , Fri 11 May 09:59 | Message #262
Replied to #250 |
I think I know how to defeat the evil that lives here then...with this:
quote:
Detatchment - I view all of you people on the board as resources... or really resource users
My my... I think I will use the summon materia "Guenhwyvar" to see what she thinks about that  .
"Just don't be afraid to admit that it would take a legion of wild horses to rip you away from watching that gorgeous hunk take that sad beautiful shonen in his arms and...
to be continued...
FANGIRL: "DAMMIT!""-Jen
Yo soy yo-LastFlik just before Lain
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| | | "Re(3):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Fri 11 May 00:53 | Message #258
Replied to #252 |
Well TC has my vote..... A cabbage? ...I know I must have missed something here... either way.... he meets the villain profile so far.....
"...and I took the road less traveled by and that has made all the difference."
Robert Frost
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| | | "Re(5):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Fri 11 May 15:58 | Message #267
Replied to #263 |
Oh my! It looks as though I've started a fan club for TC..... anyone else wish to join?
"...and I took the road less traveled by and that has made all the difference."
Robert Frost
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| | | "Re(6):Characteristics of a 'Great' Villian" , Thu 17 May 18:56 | Message #281
Replied to #267 |
*tears down fan club*
No one wants to join!
*glares at all the wannbe TC fangirls*
I know how to use many a weapon my dears!
...
Muwahahahahahahahahaha...
there.. NOW GO!
"Eiiiiiiiiinnnn!" - Ed
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