Original message
| |  "The Sons of Cain... (spoilers)"
, Sat 2 Sep 22:03
Well, this may or may not be a little-known fact, but it'll turn into a simple question, don't worry. ^.^ And please note that this is not fact, it's just a theory. Please adjust your thinking accordingly.
So, anyway... The Twelve Gazel Ministers are named after the sons/descendants of Cain in the Bible. (I'm pretty sure this is on my page if you want to see -- if not, that means I forgot to upload it. ^^) Now, while it's generally said that the first thirteen people were born from Miang... it doesn't say exactly when.
This implies to me that - taking this historical parallel into account - Cain was the only being she created as Original Miang, and the others came about after she split into Miang and Elly. That means, they're descendants of Cain and Miang. And of each other, actually (poor Miang - I hope they were at least better looking when they were young... ^_~).
We can also go with the common belief - that they were all born at the same time (and that's what really killed Miang).
Anyway, I'm just interested in opinions and comments. Anyone have any?
Ja mata!
Amber Michelle
"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time
Posts: 69
| | Registered: Tue 25 Jul 2000 2:55 |
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| |  "Re(1):The Sons of Cain... (spoilers)"
, Thu 7 Sep 19:58
Hmm... interesting topic... I'm writing a fanfic about this stuff, it'll be a little while before it's done though since it's about Cain's entire life, not just that part of it. I was under the impression that the mother gave birth to the ministers before she died, and all at roughly the same time. That's what I put in the fanfic, although I might be wrong about it...
"Have you ever been in love?" Kissoon replied.
"Yes I think so."
"Then you've been to Quiddity twice. Once the first night you slept out of the womb. The second occassion the night you lay beside the woman you loved. Or man was it?" He laughed. "Whichever."
"Quiddity is the sea."
"Quiddity is the sea. And in it are islands called the Ephemeris."
"I want to go there." Jaff breathed.
"You will. One more time you will."
"When?"
"The last night of your life. That's all we ever get."
-Exerpt from The Great and Secret Show by Clive Barker
Posts: 37
| Location: Boston MA
| Registered: Sat 29 Jul 2000 17:51 |
| | "Re(1):The Sons of Cain... (spoilers)" , Tue 5 Sep 10:09
Ever heard of immaculate conception? ^_~
Actually, come to think of it... If all of humanity comes from Miang, then the entire world is incest-ridden, right? We're all of the same blood that way, after all. :P Scary, ne?
"The time when all things started...
The place where all things were one...
I am going to return there!"
~ Krelian
Posts: 10
| | Registered: Tue 15 Aug 2000 16:52 |
| | | "Re(2):The Sons of Cain... (spoilers)" , Wed 6 Sep 01:56
Well if you believe in the Adam and Eve stuff in the most literal sense then the whole real world is based on incest, of course thats a topic for a philisophical message board.
Yes totally useless ha ha chase after it
boy a love thats unattainable no matter
how hard you pursue it.
Posts: 88
| Location: Jugend
| Registered: Tue 1 Aug 2000 1:51 |
| | | "Re(3):The Sons of Cain... (spoilers)" , Wed 6 Sep 13:30
Er... Is there something wrong with a little philosophical thinking? Not saying I 'believe' in the Adam and Eve thing, but it's a theory that could have some relevance to Xenogears.. I think so, anyway.
"The time when all things started...
The place where all things were one...
I am going to return there!"
~ Krelian
Posts: 14
| | Registered: Tue 15 Aug 2000 16:52 |
| | | "Re(4):The Sons of Cain... (spoilers)" , Wed 6 Sep 21:21
I'm all for philosophy in fact if you go to Shevat http://legacy.square-online.com / I talk about it all the time my point is that this is a Xenogears storyline messageboard so we should atleast try and stick to the topic and not argue about whether we all came from Adam and Eve.
There certainly are distinct references between the Garden of Eden story and the birth of humanity in Xenogears. As you might already know Cain was the son of Adam and Eve, dunno how much exactly that is relevant to the Xenogears Cain. Perhaps Miang is his mother which brings more incest into the storyline when you think about her relationship with Ramsus. Personally I doubt that as mentioned in my larger post further down which explains my interpretation of the events. Its at odds with Myaru's in some places so some of the facts may not be correct but read it anyway
Yes totally useless ha ha chase after it
boy a love thats unattainable no matter
how hard you pursue it.
Posts: 90
| Location: Jugend
| Registered: Tue 1 Aug 2000 1:51 |
| | "Re(1):The Sons of Cain... (spoilers)" , Sun 3 Sep 01:48
I realize that much of the science in Xenogears is far from true to life--this mostly because of it's high reliance on religion and, thus, its ability to "warp" and "bend" natural law whenever dramatics required it. However, I agree it seems more likely that Cain was first-born and father to the Ministry. My belief in this comes mostly from his independence from and suppiriority to the Gazel Ministry. If Deus is the nearly perfect system that it must have been to have survived so long, it seems unlikely that its interface--Miang/Elly--would produce "offspring" of varrying "quality" (unless, of course, that was an integral part of the plan for the Deus System ressurection). Cain's "sepperateness" also seems to stem from his greater capacity for compassion. I realize that the Ministry was locked away in the SOL 9000 as data and ,therefore, were "clensed" of any emotion; it does seem, though, that even when they retained their "fleshy" bodies, they were more concerned with Deus's plans than Cain was.
I wonder, then, (and this is where the science part comes in) if Miang/Elly created the first being, without a "male" factor (I assume this process was something akin to a form of sexual reproduction otherwise Cain would be her clone), she must have had help from the Wave existance. This help may have been forced by the Deus System, but I imagine it was there anyway. This would seem to validate the "thinking outside of the box" that Cain and anyone who contacted the Wave Existance was capable of. If he then mated with Miang without the Elly component this would also validate the lack of the "thinking outside of the box" that the Ministry exhibited.
I also wonder about the genetics of the Xenogears world.
We all know what incest can do, right?
*shivers*
All in all, I guess this incredably long and pointless post was to say: Yes, I agree with you!
Well, please excuse my lengthy dirgressions, and I'm sorry if I have repeated anything you have said and waisted most of your time. I haven't read PW since I can't read Japanesse (most of my info comes from just the game and what I've picked up at Guardian Angels (^_^)
Gracias y adios senorita!
"And there was Silence in The House of Judgement"
--Oscar Wilde
Posts: 6
| | Registered: Sun 30 Jul 2000 15:48 |
| | | "Re(2):The Sons of Cain... (spoilers)" , Sun 3 Sep 05:41:
Ok there's going to be a lot of questions and speculation in this and feel free to tear apart any ideas I might put down here.
Firstly were any members of the Gazel ministry female?
Logically speaking it would make sense if atleast a few of the twelve were female but in the game none of them seem feminine to me
Next point is who exactly did the mother persona give birth too. Well seeing as Cain appears to be genetically superior to all other humans I'd assume he was actually created by Deus to be the father of humanity with the mother persona being well as her name indicates the mother of humanity.
Now this is where it gets a little cloudy. The Gazel ministry was presumably all given birth to by the mother persona since there wasn't anyone else around. As for the father that would most likely be Cain although another theory is that the Mother Persona was already pregnant when she was created. Ok that sounds unrealistic and very painful but it is yet another posibility remember they did all possess unique genetic factors ie Animus and prolonged life expectancies.
And now it gets even cloudier
We have two contradictory scenes one is Abel as a kid in the desert with who appears to be Elly but whom I suspect is the Mother persona with the Gazel ministry walking away from Abel this would I suspect take place before the Miang/Elly split
The second scene is of Abel and Elly being chased by Cain and the ministry at night. (Shown just before Fei contacts the wave existence). My asumption having thought about this recently is that the Mother persona gave birth to two twins Miang and Elly. Originally they were supposed to be a single entity but the foetus or embryo (whatever) split in two. This of course means that Elly would be a fair bit younger than Abel but still closer to his age than the mother persona.
Presumably Miang and the ministry gave birth to the rest of humanity and everything's explained. Well the age of everyone seems a lot muddled but its the best theory I can give. And please dont bring up the ethics of Miang sleeping with her brothers its not something I want to think about anymore.
Yes totally useless ha ha chase after it
boy a love thats unattainable no matter
how hard you pursue it.
[this message was edited by DarkSabre on Sun 3 Sep 05:59]
Posts: 86
| Location: Jugend
| Registered: Tue 1 Aug 2000 1:51 |
| | | "Re(3):The Sons of Cain... (spoilers)" , Thu 7 Sep 01:55
Firstly... the Gazel Ministers.
We really don't know about them. We know for sure that eight of them are male, but the other four -- the four killed permanently by Grahf -- are an unknown factor. Even the PW doesn't really tell you anything about them (unless that info is in the paragraph that I haven't translated yet) - it doesn't even give their names. Like I said on their page on GA, I speculated that they would be parallel to the wives of Cain's descendants, but that still leaves number twelve an unknown (since my Bible, at least, only mentions three wives).
Second... In that flashback scene with Abel and Elly in the desert, it couldn't have been the complete Mother persona. She was Miang when she gave birth to Cain, and after that she split (or whatever you want to call it). That doesn't leave room for her to comfort Abel... I think Miang just gave birth to the two parts of herself at a certain age, like I've always assumed she did, and that was the half that was 'Mother'.
(I should really explain this more... but I'm lazy. And it's difficult to type peacefully right now. ^^)
Now, if you go by just what they said in the game, Miang gave birth to all three components (assuming I'm right and the Gazel came later) on her own. Now, that doesn't mean Deus or Zohar didn't give a helping hand, but There... weren't any men around unless you want to count Abel, and... I refuse to even take that as a possibility. Sorry, but I don't think even MIANG looks at children like that. ^^
Problem is... once you get into the "Factor #" stuff that they have in the book, it gets a little more complicated. Miang's nature is in question (although in that, I'm going on someone's word, and not my own translation), and there are several pages that explore this particular situation - and the link between Miang and Elly - in great depth.
And when you only skim... it gives weird ideas. Too weird. ^^; *smacks self*
To be perfectly clear... there's nothing obvious that states either way the accuracy of my theory... I'd have to read into it a lot more, and that'll have to be reserved for later, since I'm working on another part of the book right now.
Anyway... more? ^_^ Come on, bring the board back to life. If not with this theory, then there are so many things to question... Things even the PW never clears up. ^_^
Ja mata!
Amber Michelle
"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time
Posts: 75
| | Registered: Tue 25 Jul 2000 2:55 |
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Emperor Cain
