Original message
| |  "Alpha and True Weltall is the EXACT same Gear"
, Sat 14 Oct 13:34:
Some of us has been confused why Grahf's Omnigear is called both Alpha and True Weltall. One explanation is that True Weltall is missing it's Anima Relic. This is incorrect however. Please read this carefully...
First, Grahf's gear has always demon wings, it's just that he sometimes don't keep them out. Alpha/True Weltall are exactly the same Gear. Both are one and the same Omnigear. The thing is, in the japanese version it was called "OR Weltall" at Mahanon and "Original Weltall" at Zohar. The translator didn't think OR sounded good enough so they changed it to Alpha Weltall, but failed to realize that OR was short for Original. So when they translated the Zohar part and saw it called by it's full name "Original" then they changed it unmotivated to "True" instead of keeping the name "Alpha". Alpha/True Weltall was not present when Deus absorbed the other Omnigears, so the last relic (Naphtali) didn't get absorbed until Grahf took Fei's place as the final component of Deus at Zohar. I already explained to you why the names are different. A translate error/missunderstanding.
True Weltall is not weaker than Alpha Weltall, they are supposed to be exactly the same. It's just that Xenogears is so powerful it makes Alpha/True Weltall appear weaker at Zohar. Obviously the programmers put down True Weltall's HP and strength a bit so technically it is weaker, but they only did that to make Xenogears appear stronger. In Perfect Works you can see that Alpha/True Weltall is called Original (OR) Weltall ONLY. The english translation is just confusing you.
Thank you.
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[this message was edited by A C on Sat 14 Oct 13:42]
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| | "A friendly warning..." , Sun 15 Oct 01:49
Keep in mind that I'm speaking only to preserve the peace of the board, but...
This has already been answered in Square Legacy's board, so this is a warning to both you and Andvari, AC -- DO NOT continue your argument here. If you do I'll see that the thread is deleted. I don't have anything against either of you - I'm not mad at you or anything of the sort, nor am I trying to pick on you - but there is absolutely no reason to repeat the conflict here.
Keep that in mind. Discuss it all you want (this is a storyline board after all), but it's going to come down if it turns into a shouting match.
Ja mata.
Amber Michelle
"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time
Posts: 112
| | Registered: Tue 25 Jul 2000 2:55 |
| | | "Re(1):A friendly warning..." , Sun 15 Oct 09:13
Thank you, but the reason I brought it up here is because there are much more Xenogears people here and on the Legacy board the arguments are scattered all over the place. I think I got all my points in the above post so hopefully everyone will understand this time... I DO NOT intend to start a fight here. I trust that Andvari will not do it either.
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| | | "Re(2):A friendly warning..." , Sun 15 Oct 17:28
Legacy Board, where what is the URL?
Destiny has but one soul.
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| | | "Re(3):A friendly warning..." , Sun 15 Oct 21:11
Square Legacy boards:
http://legacy.square-online.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi
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| | "Re(1):Alpha and True Weltall is the EXACT sam" , Sat 14 Oct 15:18
Interesting... it never occured to me that his Anima Relic could have been absorbed after the events at Zohar. I always figured that it was absorbed along with Dinah, Zebulun, Reuben, Simeon, and Issacher before you even go to Merkava. Well, this idea is certainly one to take into consideration.
"Have you ever been in love?" Kissoon replied.
"Yes I think so."
"Then you've been to Quiddity twice. Once the first night you slept out of the womb. The second occassion the night you lay beside the woman you loved. Or man was it?" He laughed. "Whichever."
"Quiddity is the sea."
"Quiddity is the sea. And in it are islands called the Ephemeris."
"I want to go there." Jaff breathed.
"You will. One more time you will."
"When?"
"The last night of your life. That's all we ever get."
-Exerpt from The Great and Secret Show by Clive Barker
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| | | "Re(2):Alpha and True Weltall is the EXACT sam" , Mon 16 Oct 00:58
As Myaru said before we've seen all this Alpha Weltall/True Weltall crap at Legacy of square and I for the life of me can't see why you people think it's so important. It's a trivial aspect in a video game get over it.
If you want my opinion though, I think AC is right about the names. I'd put it down to translators screwing around with us again and leave it at that. Case closed (or atleast until someone writes a response)
Yes totally useless ha ha chase after it
boy a love thats unattainable no matter
how hard you pursue it.
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| | | "Re(3):Alpha and True Weltall is the EXACT sam" , Mon 16 Oct 19:56
Actually - sorry to break it to anyone who disagrees -- AC IS right about the names. I said that at Legacy, although no one listened. In the Japanese version, there is only Original Weltall, at various levels of strength depending on when you fight him. **shrug** That's a fact.
The rest is all theory, and I wish people would treat it that way. They argued it like the answer would save or break the world, and to be perfectly honest... you're right, it's not that important. At all. No matter which way you cut it, it's Grahf's gear, you have to fight it, and it gets absorbed into Zohar. No matter what you call it or whether it's relic is still there (Naphtali may have already been absorbed - maybe), it won't change the story.
So, in short... let it go. ^^
Ja mata.
Amber Michelle
"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time
Posts: 114
| | Registered: Tue 25 Jul 2000 2:55 |
| | | "Re(4):Alpha and True Weltall is the EXACT sam" , Thu 26 Oct 19:10
Myaru what's up with that? First at legacy you basically said we were both right/wrong and you left it up to us to continue or not. Then here you say AC is right and at the end you say it could have already been absorbed. Which is it?
Lowered his strenght abit AC? haha. You are soo absorbed with believing it is a translation error (only because jap ver and PW call it OR/Original you have no other facts and these facts aren't REALLY credible.) How do you know that Naphtali wasn't absorbed with all the rest of the anime relics? No matter how you look at it, Grhaf's plans to destroy the world would be acheived weather he did it himself or let Deus do it.
The only mentionings I have heard (though I do believe you all on this) is Or/Original Weltall is what it was BEFORE getting the power of Zohar. Then it becomes True Weltall. It gets it's relic and then becomes AlphaWeltall. It loses it's relic and becomes TrueWeltall again. What is soo hard to understand about this? It makes much more sense and ties into the story better then your notions of translation errors and lowered stats.
-Peace to all those who come here. Fearing great calamity we sealed this legacy entrusting its fate to you.-
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| | Registered: Mon 31 Jul 2000 0:34 |
| | | "Re(5):Alpha and True Weltall is the EXACT sam" , Thu 26 Oct 19:16:
No it does not. I remember the first time I heard about "Original Weltall" was when my japanese friend roughly translated parts from the timeline and I even remember you commented on it saying, "I wonder what Original Weltall looked like", but you see it's Alpha Weltall's original japanese name. This is why I dislike discussing with 14 year old kids... You say you don't believe my theory because it sucks and I take that as a confession. You WANT True and Alpha Weltall to be two different gears so badly that you discard the facts. Simple as that.
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[this message was edited by A C on Thu 26 Oct 19:21]
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| | | "Re(6):Alpha and True Weltall is the EXACT sam" , Thu 26 Oct 19:23
All this on Original Weltall wasn't dealt with until a little later on. At the time when I said this supposedly I bet no details or theories that are now known weren't at the time. So yea if I heard about something called Original Weltall I would probably say something like that. Also if anything this was probably said at TNS when it as more popular and around those times I beat it a few times. Since I have beatne it about 5more times so I strongly know what I am talking about. I would expect 19 year olds (if you are 19) to be able to get facts straight but with you AC I guess that is an immposibility.
-Peace to all those who come here. Fearing great calamity we sealed this legacy entrusting its fate to you.-
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| | Registered: Mon 31 Jul 2000 0:34 |
| | | "Re(7):Alpha and True Weltall is the EXACT sam" , Thu 26 Oct 19:58:
............... Been awhile since I set foot on a ubb.
ANyways though I'm here on the behalf of settling this little arguement.
Now then Ac.. before I go into all great details and such I'm gonna start out simply. Yous aid that they weakened AW a BIT at Zohar to make the XG look more powerful..
I don't know what you definition of a BIT is.. but my definition of lowering his Hp by 85% a litte more than a bit..
As for the strength thing.. I once had The STRONGEST armor def wise when i went up against him after deus. MY Def at that time EXCEEDED what you get when you first get the XG. Even with all taht DEfence AW was sTILL doing 9,999 damage to me with every punch and tip toe attack. Yet when Fighting him at Zohar HE could barely do 600 to me when I had a lower def!
SO lets see... thats like ummmmm... 90% weakened there.
So LEts jsut say that AW is the omni version of TW, . AW has 85% more hp and like 90% more str. Now is that suppose to be the differnce between a normal Gear and an Omnigear? His hp boosted by 85% and str 90%? I'm pretty sure thats what being upgraded to an omnigear is suppose to do. SO by the looks of it there you were fighting a simple gear.
LEts look at this "Did not asorb his relic cause he wasn't there at the time" thing.
Wouldn't that mean that There were still some relics left in the world? Seeing how not all 12 were there at the time.. that should mean more were left. And what about Ramsus's Omni Gear? It wasn't there, HE was using a differnet Omnigear when you were fighting him before deus asorbs all the relics. MEaning that Vendetta musta been stored somewhere safe correct? But... wouldn't someone had known that his Gear with the relic was safe and try to use it? I' sure Taura woulda been able to use it, and I'm sure he would have known if it still had its relic. NOt to mention wouldn't Ramsus use it to whoop the now weak Gears? THe only reason why he wouldn't or someone else for that matter would be because ITs only Wyvern due to the fact that the Relic was asorbed!
I doubt that an all powerful entity which was meant to asorb all the relics anyways woudn't beable to do it just cause some of them were there. After you give me some descent explanations for these Ac I will go more into detail.
I give it to yea that Both AW and TW have wings.. But the reason why the Omni and Original version look the same is because well... IT IS THE ORIGINAL GEAR. IT is the diablos Gear, and so thereofre has a reason to look the same no matter what.
[this message was edited by Omega Grahf on Thu 26 Oct 20:03]
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| | Registered: Thu 26 Oct 2000 19:44 |
| | | "Re(8):Alpha and True Weltall is the EXACT sam" , Fri 27 Oct 05:45
Yes, they lowered TW HP alot. The reason AW has so ridiculous amount of HP at Mahanon is because you are NOT supposed to beat him. At Zohar you are supposed to, AND Xenogears is supposed to look mightier.
About the difference between Omnigears and regular Gears - NONE.
When you get Andvari it is only stronger than the other Gears because it has better engine, frame and equippments. When you use the normal Gears at Zohar they are still just as strong as the Omnigears. And why would Grahf be so sure of himself, saying he would use the others as bait and stuff unless Fei didn't fight him if he only had an original weak Gear?
I'm sure all relics were absorbed. You didn't see Vendetta but it was probably there, or at least the relic was probably there. AW could have been there, but as it turns out since you fight it at Zohar it was clearly NOT absorbed.
I doubt that A/T Weltall is supposed to look like the original Diabolos Unit. What is Wiseman's Gear if not the original Diabolos Unit.
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| | |  "Re(8):Alpha and True Weltall is the EXACT sam"
, Fri 27 Oct 00:22
Andvari, AC... you're skirting the line. I'm losing patience with both of you very quickly.
This will be my last and only reply - and mark my words, you two. Discussion is all well and good, but you're starting down the same path you followed at Squaresoft Legacy. This discussion is steadily turning into an excuse for your argument, and since there does not appear to be an end in sight, I strongly suggest that you take this up somewhere else. Discussion is one thing, but you've already began flinging insults at each other again, and that's just unecessary.
If you absolutely must continue this discussion - and I don't want to suppress any actual discussion - please refrain from that sort of thing. And if you have any protests, send them to me through e-mail, please. That's why it's there.
Ja mata.
Amber Michelle
"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time
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| | Registered: Tue 25 Jul 2000 2:55 |
| | | "Re(9):Alpha and True Weltall is the EXACT sam" , Fri 27 Oct 15:56
Even I have to agree that the battle at Mahanon was a bit of bs. AW was very powerful there, more then is realistic. But also keep in mind that Grhaf's gear had the power of Zohar. Therefore it would have been very powerful. But who cares about what he said at Zohar about using them as bait? First unless this constant hypermode stuff is true, just one of those 3 gears would have been enough to take him out. If not then the 3 would have been able to together. Also Grahf seriously does talk like he is the most powerful even at th end. I mean if he can talk about how he will take over Fei and the Xenogears after he usus his gear to defeat him even though XG is supposed to be more powerful, then obvioulsy he is making all sorts of empty threats.
Another thing is it is possible to separet and anime relic from it's animus once it has been aligned as you propose AC and also this is really a guess, but I think Wiseman's gear turns into A/TW when in the same way Fei's Weltall turns into Id's Weltall throughout the game.
-Peace to all those who come here. Fearing great calamity we sealed this legacy entrusting its fate to you.-
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| | | "Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is the EXACT sa" , Sat 28 Oct 23:12
You say against yourself here. What makes you think Grahf's gear had direct Connection to Zohar? And if it DID then it would still be as strong when you fight it at Zohar, no?
Now, what you said here sounds like you agree with me:
"Another thing is it is possible to separet and anime relic from it's animus once it has been aligned as you propose AC and also this is really a guess, but I think Wiseman's gear turns into A/TW when in the same way Fei's Weltall turns into Id's Weltall throughout the game."
So that means True Weltall must be an Omnigear, since Wiseman's Gear is A/T Weltall without it's relic. Finally we agree *pheew*
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| | | "Re(2):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is the EX" , Sat 28 Oct 23:12
AC sure as hell is right.
-TheContact
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| | | "Re(3):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is the EX" , Sat 28 Oct 23:13
I think so too.
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| | | "Re(4):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is the EX" , Sat 28 Oct 23:51
Do I have to kill you and use your limbs for firewood before you understand? Do not post under this name any longer, or I'll take it as an excuse to remove you. *sigh*
Ja mata.
Amber Michelle
"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time
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| | Registered: Tue 25 Jul 2000 2:55 |
| | | "Re(4):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is the EX" , Sat 28 Oct 23:17
How is Wiseman's gear A/TW without it's relic? it is a guess but at Zeboim when Wiseman comes in, that is an omnigear even though it is disguised.
Ac don't agree with yourself twice.
-Peace to all those who come here. Fearing great calamity we sealed this legacy entrusting its fate to you.-
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| | Registered: Mon 31 Jul 2000 0:34 |
| | | "Re(5):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is the EX" , Sat 28 Oct 23:20
Also Grahf's gear had gotten contact with Zohar something like 500 years ago to get the direct conenction I believe. And no it wouldn't be as strong wiht just a direct connection with Zohar and not the anime relic ala it being weak at Zohar.
nice to see you again TC. Long time.
-Peace to all those who come here. Fearing great calamity we sealed this legacy entrusting its fate to you.-
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| | | "Re(6):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is the EX" , Sat 28 Oct 23:24
Sorry for a third post like this but let's say AW is at Zohar then that means Wiseman's gear is an omnigear and could have beaten Id instead of getting it's ass kicked.
-Peace to all those who come here. Fearing great calamity we sealed this legacy entrusting its fate to you.-
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| | | "Re(6):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is the EX" , Sat 28 Oct 23:23:
How could Wiseman disguise A/T Weltall's wings?
The A/T Weltall (a Diabolos) never made Contact with Zohar. That is just a theory that doesn't make sence, cuz if it did then it would evolve to something Xenogears looking.
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[this message was edited by A C on Sat 28 Oct 23:24]
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| | | "Re(7):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is the EX" , Sat 28 Oct 23:27
Huh? And you say my XG knowledge is limited. Grahf made contact with Zohar 500 years ago and with all that hate in his heart, tunred him into the black armor wearing guy we see throughout the game. Grahf went pop at Zohar and turned his gear back into his weltall.
-Peace to all those who come here. Fearing great calamity we sealed this legacy entrusting its fate to you.-
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| | | "Re(8):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is the EX" , Sat 28 Oct 23:35
I've never said you're Xenogears knowledge is limited.
Lacan made contact, yes. But he didn't have any Gear so he revived the Army of Diabolos and he took one of those and put an Anima Relic on to form A/T Weltall. It never got in direct touch with Zohar.
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| | | "Re(9):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is the EX" , Sat 28 Oct 23:41
If this is true and you said this early on in legacy we wouldn't have had this huge debate.
-Peace to all those who come here. Fearing great calamity we sealed this legacy entrusting its fate to you.-
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| | | "Re(10):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is the E" , Sat 28 Oct 23:44
Oh crap wait, you are right about a few pieces but you still don't fight an omnigear at Zohar. That part has yet to be proven wrong.
-Peace to all those who come here. Fearing great calamity we sealed this legacy entrusting its fate to you.-
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| | | "Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is" , Sat 28 Oct 23:51
The proof lies in the fact that it looks exactly the same and that Wiseman's Gear is A/T Weltall without it's relic. If it was absorbed then he would be fighting Xenogears in Wiseman's Gear. Simple as that.
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| | | "Re(3):Re(10):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is" , Sat 28 Oct 23:54
he wouldn't be fighting in Wiseman's gear cause Wiseman's gear is Grahf's gear and Wiseman/Kahn is when Kahn can break free of grahf's hold and to disguise hiimself from Fei, he wears a mask and uses this gear we call Wiseman's gear.
-Peace to all those who come here. Fearing great calamity we sealed this legacy entrusting its fate to you.-
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| | Registered: Mon 31 Jul 2000 0:34 |
| | | "Re(4):Re(10):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is" , Sun 29 Oct 06:46:
Damn, now I'm confused as hell about this @_@
You both have good points, I do think that Wiseman's Gear probably was the original Diablos Gear, but how could he just disconnect the anima relic from it and turn into that one at various points throughout the game? Maybe if that question is answered I could believe AC's theory, but I'm still siding with Andvari on this. I think if True and Alpha were really the exact same thing, they might have made atleast one mention of it in the game. Also, the strength of True W also points to Andvari's theory. Sure, Xenogears is wicked strong, but it's not so strong that it is 10 times stronger than the omnigears you use at Mahanon.
[this message was edited by Emperor Cain on Sun 29 Oct 06:47]
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| | | "Re(6):Re(10):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is" , Fri 3 Nov 19:42
Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Frankly, I don't know what to think about this matter.
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| | | "Re(7):Re(10):Re(10):Alpha and True Weltall is" , Tue 7 Nov 21:11
Wait when inactive, A/T Weltall's Wings are concealed, but it is still in its demon form (the fight on the Goliath, etc.) When Grahf is fighting in it or when things heat up, it sprouts demon wings. Are the wings A/T Weltall's Hyper Mode?(Like Xenogears Energy Wings?)
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| | Registered: Wed 18 Oct 2000 13:32 |
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A C
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