Topic Title: Xenogears Psychology
| |  "Xenogears Psychology"
, Tue 17 Apr 21:26
Hello all. Fei's psychological disorder was split personalities of course. When he saw how powerless he was to help innocents his superego formed it's own personality, and made the coward. Without his superego there is no guilt, or feeling of reward, therefore he just becomes furious when he cannot help innocents. So, his id made a personality of it's own as well. The only thing that there was left was his ego, which is the so called true Fei.
This was kind of a long introduction to my question, but what I'm wandering is exactly how will this work when Fei's/Lacan's spirit goes on to the next generation. Does the sould cary the personality with it, and the personality disorders as well? Does this mean that there will be a whole generation of psychopaths after Fei?
"It would strike me as ridiculous to want to doubt the existence of Napoleon; but if someone doubted the existence of the earth 150 years ago perhaps I should be more willing to listen for now he is doubting our whole system of evidence."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein
::on a tombstone::
...here lies an atheist
...all dressed up and nowhere to go.
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| | "Re(1):Xenogears Psychology" , Wed 18 Apr 07:19
A very intresting question however It is truely impossible to tell. As we are aware only Memories transfer. However when at Turas Citian mentions that Elly has picked up a new disposition, she is more like a 'mother' . Next throughout the game Elly and Fei mention that they are not sure if they love eachother because they did so in their past lives or becuase they do so now.
As such I must suppose that the personality traits to some level transfer. This is further supported by WE assertion that his contact probably helped trigger the personality split (remember Fei had not had contact before in this life, meaning that this would be a carry on from another life).
However it seems that the transfer personality moves as a whole. Kind of a blend of the past personalities. This is based on the fact that Fei did not gain several splinter personalities upon joining with his past. As such a multi personality (especially one that has already combined) would simply be a single grouping of ideals. Thus I doubt that the next Fei will gain an Fei/Id personality, but simply a large 'Contact' personality if a transmigration occures at all. (this is a seperate argument)
The presure of an outside personality is however not a studied psycological event. As such I cannot guess at what the psycological effects would be. This may be quite possibly what WE was refering to when he said it was inpart his fault.
-- "Damn morals! they are always in the way!"
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| | |  "Re(2):Xenogears Psychology"
, Thu 7 Jun 04:38 PM | Message #1439
Replied to #1227 |
I don't think the "personality transfer" has anything to do with Zophar, or Zophar is that important to this phenomenon. I think in the Xenogears world the existence of souls is a reality, so with or without Zophar, the souls pass on. it's just that certain souls has very special experiences/memories that can be "awakened" through generations. I don't know if more souls are created in Fei's persoanlity split, but in the game they merged back into one whole soul. About Lacan, I think he's absorbed by Deus, maybe his soul returns to the Wave Existence? (What's Grafh anyway? a drifting parasitic soul?)
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.
- John Milton Paradise Lost
Hail to Cthulhu Incarnate! Dark One Reborn! Master of the Throne of the Deep! Lord of Shayol Ghul! Essence of Yin!
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| | | "Re(3):Xenogears Psychology" , Thu 7 Jun 05:37 PM | Message #1441
Replied to #1439 |
Hey, that's the conclusion I drew too! I saw the rebirth of people in Xenogears more as a Bhuddist-type wheel of reincarnation (possibly without a Nirvana waiting at the end) than the interference of the WE on the part of certain individuals. After all, didn't it state in many different parts of the game that everyone is reborn? It was my impression that certain people (like Fei and Elly) were simply special because they kept more aspects of the former personalities, having a common destiny in store for them. This may or may not have been due to WE's interference.
*shrug* I could very well be wrong. It's been a very long time since I played Xenogears, and unlike most of the people here, I only played through once. I almost never reread a book or replay a game, mostly because I have a good enough memory that I would find the restatement of everything I already know incredibly boring. I could never even bring myself to play the new game+ modes in Chrono Trigger and Cross.
-feithecontact
"Does the word 'duty' justify all of this?"
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| | | "Re(4):Xenogears Psychology" , Fri 8 Jun 12:02 AM | Message #1447
Replied to #1441 |
Yup, that's exactly what I think, and maybe joining the WE is some kind of Nirvana? So it's actually not some "psychology", but rather "spirituality ;)
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.
- John Milton Paradise Lost
Hail to Cthulhu Incarnate! Dark One Reborn! Master of the Throne of the Deep! Lord of Shayol Ghul! Essence of Yin!
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| | | "Re(5):Xenogears Psychology" , Fri 8 Jun 08:30 AM | Message #1448
Replied to #1447 |
Well, of course psychology plays its part in Xenogears as well, along with science, nanotechnology, religious philosophy, mysticism & the kaballah. Xenogears is just complex like that. ^_^
But yeah I'd say that my impression of the rebirth of people was more of an all-encompassing one than that of a few individuals reincarnated by specific beings for specific purposes.
-feithecontact
"Does the word 'duty' justify all of this?"
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| | | "Re(2):Xenogears Psychology" , Thu 7 Jun 09:15 AM | Message #1435
Replied to #1227 |
Hmmm.... This is an old thread isn't it? Oh well, I've got something to add. 
TheContact, you missed something in your long Freudian dissertation under 'the meaning of id'... You said that the Id was powered entirely by sexual drive based upon 'the pleasure principle', but Freud later revised his theory. He proposed that the Id (as the first piece of the personality to surface and the one containing drives and goals) was the location of the Libido, or the mental energy which drove a person's life by forming drives, desires, goals, etc. This Libido is split into two parts: Eros, the life principle, which contains constructive drives such as procreation and nurturing; and Thanatos, the death principle, which contains destructive drives such as violence, non-consentual sex, suicide, etc. Certain personality disorders may also stem from an unequal distribution between the forces of Eros and Thanatos.
Oh, and while I agree that Freudian theory has the least basis in fact, it does work the best for literature, and has a nice sort of semi-mythical ring to it. The other common type of psychology used in literture is Jungian (which is neo-Freudian anyway), and is also drawn upon heavily in Xenogears. Anyway, Psychology itself is a 'science' devoid of laws and abounding in theories; all research done in psychology is more affected by the observer's perceptions than research in other areas of science; and I've found that nearly all psychological theories suffer from the 'post hoc, ergo propter hoc' fallacy. So lack of basis in fact isn't a reason to dismiss psychodynamic theories. ^_^ I think you must admit that there is some form of unconscious influence which affects our daily lives, even if you believe it is mostly biological/social in origin (which Freud actually tilted towards in some of his later essays anyway).
Heheh, that made me sound smart, didn't it? -_^
-feithecontact
"Does the word 'duty' justify all of this?"
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| |  TheContact
I am not your friend |
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| "Re(3):Xenogears Psychology" , Thu 7 Jun 12:02 PM | Message #1436
Replied to #1435 |
I agree with you in many respects, but I disagree that psychology is more prone to the interpretation of the observer than other sciences. Every science seeks to explain the world in terms relative to our own existance. After all, is it not meaningless to describe the world in a manner in which we cannot appreciate or understand?
I know that you mean that psychological experiments are "more" subject to interpretation than other experiments, but to that point I disagree. Especially in biological/cognitive experiments, the fundamentals of experimentation (i.e. estabilishing a control, double-blind tests, etc.) are adhered to. In addition, thanks to random sampling, if a similar response is observed by a group of subjects, and verified by a group of observers, then it's more likely than not to be accurate.
Mind you, the psychology I'm personally interested is not of higher brain functions, since frankly, it's a bit complicated at that point. But concepts such as depression, and various brain chemical disorders can and are more easily studied and diagnosed, much in the same way the medical profession can study and diagnose problems with the the rest of the body.
You have to remember that psychology as a science is still in its infancy, and that there's a great deal of filtration that needs to occur. While Freud "legitimized" psychology as a science, it has only been in the last 50 years or so that the scientific method has been applied to the field. As such, many important research concepts such as longitudinal studies have yet to be completed. However, on the medical/biological side of it, progress is being made at the speed of medicine, and is less prone to being merely theory sans experimental proof.
I also agree with you that Freudian and neo-Freudian analysis proves fertile to literature for it's often mythical discourse on the topic of the human psyche. For that, I do not detract from it - but as an actual explanation for human behavior, it lacks. And unfortunately, many (dare I say most) people don't seperate information from the media (be it literature or visual in nature) from text book understanding of the world.
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| | | "Re(4):Xenogears Psychology" , Thu 7 Jun 01:00 PM | Message #1437
Replied to #1436 |
Hmm... well, I do rather strongly believe that psychology is in fact more subjective than other areas of 'hard' science due to one thing; the unknowable factors of thought and motivation.
In chemistry for example, a certain experimental combination of compounds done in exactly the same manner will always produce the same effect. This is because the compounds themselves have no control over/awareness of the situation. The same cannot be said for psychology. Two humans of similar genetic make-up, brought up under similar circumstances in similar cultures, and subjected to the same experience, will not predictably react in the same (or even a similar) manner. This is because of inner factors contained within the subjects themselves; in other words, thought, both conscious and unconscious. Even animals are much more unpredictable than a chemical experiment. I find purely medical/biological psychology rather lacking, in that it tends to assume that these inner aspects do not exist (which to me seems ironically contradictory to the purpose of psychology itself).
I also believe that Freudian psychology by itself is not a particularly valid form of psychology when taken in strict terms of real human behavior, but I do believe that when taken in with a mixture of sociology, cognitive psychology, and behavioral/genetic psychology, it creates an effective combination. It also angers me when people reject Freud's theories wholesale merely because much of it had a sexual tilt to it. Of course I agree that some of his psychosexual stages took it a little too far, but procreation being one of the major drives of human life makes good sense, genetically and otherwise.
*sigh* Wow, it's nice to have a good discussion. *stretches intellectual muscles* What was that everyone was saying about no interesting topics lately? -_^
-feithecontact
"Does the word 'duty' justify all of this?"
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| | TheContact
I am not your friend |
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| "Re(5):Xenogears Psychology" , Thu 7 Jun 03:13 PM | Message #1438
Replied to #1437 |
Hmm... forgive me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense you haven't actually studied scientific psychology in detail.
As such, let me give you an example of how psychological experiments are recorded.
Explaining the Gender Difference in Depressive Symptoms
Notice that the explanation and results all have references to previous studies (i.e. nothing is being pulled out of thin air). More importantly, look at the data results of how the conclusions were drawn - math! Modeling and statistics are age-old ways of deducing patterns in nature. The forms of psychology which give it a "soft-science" name are typically the forms that cannot be tested in this manner (i.e. Freudian/Jungian psychology).
I ask you, then, what aspect of the report you find subjective?
This is modern psychology, based not on mere observation, but on statistics, math, and the scientific method. While I know that much of early psychology was myred in unsupportable, unrepeatable case studies, modern psychology is as much a "hard" science as chemistry.
And in fact, your previous statement is indeed incorrect.
quote:
Two humans of similar genetic make-up, brought up under similar circumstances in similar cultures, and subjected to the same experience, will not predictably react in the same (or even a similar) manner.
That's actually not true! Indeed, twin studies have shown that identical twins behave remarkably similar, even when raised apart (in seperate environments, as happens when twins are seperated in adoption, etc.)
In fact, if what you said was true, then the concept of medicine would be invalid, since we're all made up of different genetic makeup and brought up in different environments :) Yet we can show that, through a double-blind test, whether a medicine is more effective than a placebo (thereby validating it's effectiveness). The same holds true in psychology.
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| | | "Re(6):Xenogears Psychology" , Thu 7 Jun 05:29 PM | Message #1440
Replied to #1438 |
You are correct in assuming that I have not professionally studied psychology; my knowledge stems from three high school courses, a bit of text reading, a lot of literature reading, and a lot of personal intuition/observance. So I must admit to being at a disadvantage. (am I correct in assuming my knowledge is somewhat impressive for my level of study? I have impressed teachers and friends, at least... ^_^)
I meant the statement you quoted less for specific one-time circumstances and more for general predictions of behavior (which is in my experience next-to impossible).
I am not saying that current psychological methods do not adhere strictly to the scientific method, include large amounts of examples, precedents, and formulae, etc. (Although actually I find this almost counter-productive... call me overly philosophical, but I think that the science of human thought and behavior should be based at least partly on personal feelings and intuitions) What I meant was that they tend to ignore the fact that they cannot measure certain aspects of the subjects they study... (their inner thoughts & feelings etc.) aspects which may be integral to the results the experiments achieve.
As I stated before, nearly all psychological study (at least in my experience) suffers from the 'post hoc, ergo propter hoc' fallacy. In other words, the experimentor goes into the experiment looking for a correlation with a theory as to why the correlation exists. Then, when he gets the results he desires, he assumes it is because of the theory. (I may be wrong about this, like I said not having professionally or even at a college-level studied psychology, but this is my perception) The reason for this is because of those unmeasurable factors -- the thoughts and feelings of the subjects.
Perhaps my view is based too much on my view that a 'science' based entirely upon a foundation as shifty as human motivation and thought can never be hard and fast. Perhaps it's because I find it somewhat sad (not to mention frightening) to think that we may one day be able to accurately predict human behavior.
Also, many of the aspects of psychology accepted as hard and fast 'laws' are based on equally shifty foundations. That book of disorders someone keeps quoting somewhere (sorry, bad memory here ^_^) is seriously doubted or even ignored by many psychologists. Insanity is largely a social issue, and the philosophical aspects of it leave much to doubt about a book that filled with pat lists of 'symptoms' which point to a person's insanity.
Also, when it comes to medical psychology, I've always had the somewhat backwards-minded view that it is in a way treating the symptoms without curing the disorder itself. Most mental disorders are really a chicken-and-egg question; is the chemical/electrical imbalance the cause of the disorder, or merely an effect of it?
Personally, my younger brother is diagnosed with Tourrettes, and I find myself questioning the nature of this particular disorder especially. The symptoms and normalities of someone suffering from Tourrettes make up such a large part of his personality that I often ask myself whether it is the disorder influencing his personality in such an all-encompassing and total way (which points to the fact that it keeps him from being a complete human being), or his personality type is merely one which society has singled out as one example of a disorder. (In case you couldn't guess, I prefer to believe the later... that the chemical imbalances in his brain are merely the effect of his overabundance of energy, etc.)
I suppose my view on medical psychology also stems from the fact that no form of medicine prescribed to him has ever even come close to working.
-feithecontact
"Does the word 'duty' justify all of this?"
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| | Xylix
The Iron Fist of Reason |
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| "Re(7):Xenogears Psychology" , Thu 7 Jun 07:01 PM | Message #1443
Replied to #1440 |
quote:
Although actually I find this almost counter-productive... call me overly philosophical, but I think that the science of human thought and behavior should be based at least partly on personal feelings and intuitions)
Psycoligists do in part consider this by asking do you feel happy, Sad, Depressed, Hungry etc.....
However if they go beyond that which can be objectively measured they are not performing science and the conclusion must be based upon the collected data. For instance a Psycologists could collect information on people who saw a movie (lets say Peral Harbor, it is already in a discussion) and could ask them if the movie made them sad, angry ect.... Then tally up the numbers.
From this lets say you had the following statistics: (though really you would need a before in after, for this purposes lets just say they are apathetic)
Happy: 10
Sad: 20
Angry 5
Lonely: 10
Not very informative is it? All that you can tell from the study is that watching Peral Harbor usually causes people to become sad. You could say that it was the ending scene that caused this, but In doing so you cease to be following science and you begin to project. That would actually be the hypothesis of your next study.
Not to say Intuition does not play a roll. Its roll is very important, Asking the question, coming up with the study, and making since of the knowlege. However you intuition cannot be allowed to conclude more than you studied and still have you study be scientific.
--"Who are you?" -- Kosh
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| | | "Re(8):Xenogears Psychology" , Thu 7 Jun 07:10 PM | Message #1445
Replied to #1443 |
I guess what I'm saying is that with a science based on something like human thought and feeling, the hard logic almost seems to detract from something I find largely philosophical in nature. I suppose it's illogical, but that's how I feel. And I always had an interest in the fields of psychology that are basically indistinguishable from philosophy (ie, Freudian, Jungian, etc.).
It just seems to me that in flooding psychology with the scientific method and intense experimentation and reasoning, we may miss something... Personally I'd prefer psychology to stay a 'soft' science, rather than trying to establish itself as a 'hard' one.
You'll have to excuse me if I'm becoming a bit incoherrant, it's getting a little late over here and I was up early.
-feithecontact
"Does the word 'duty' justify all of this?"
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| | | "Re(10):Xenogears Psychology" , Fri 8 Jun 09:11 AM | Message #1449
Replied to #1446 |
Well, I suppose I am a bit ignorant when it comes to modern psychological research... the classes that I took focused on the theories and thinking behind the major schools of psychological thought (ie, Freudian, Behavioral, Cognitive, etc.) or psychology as it applies to literary characters and their thoughts and motivations.
Eh, such is life. ^_^
-feithecontact
"Does the word 'duty' justify all of this?"
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| | TheContact
I am not your friend |
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| "Re(7):Xenogears Psychology" , Thu 7 Jun 06:31 PM | Message #1442
Replied to #1440 |
That's the nature of medicine though. Not all medicine works on everyone. Just like not all psychology works on everyone. Yet no one doubts the medical profession.
My point is that psychology is a multi-faceted field, and while some of it is rooted in 'post hoc, ergo propter hoc' methods, those methods are not considered scientifically valid today. Much as similar methods in medicine are considered invalid as well.
Essentially, psychology and biology are very similar. To claim one is a hard-science while the other is a soft-science is hypocritical.
Mind you, I'm not a psychologist or anything, and my courses in it have been in university. I am an engineer by study, and a scientist by nature. As such, I carry with me a large degree of skepticism when approaching any intellectual endeavor.
To that end, as a fellow man of science, I tell you that much of the fallibility of psychology lies in its relative youth, not in its inability to cure all.
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| | | "Re(8):Xenogears Psychology" , Thu 7 Jun 19:01 PM : | Message #1444
Reply Edited |
Hmm... but didn't you say that experiments (ie giving medication) upon people with similarities could expect similar results?
And I've always considered myself more of a writer (a profession which lends itself to philosophy) than a scientist, though I like to mix things up a bit. ^_^ Most of my arguments from this point on would be based more on philosophy than any kind of science, so I'll stop.
EDIT: Oh, and your picture still scares me.
-feithecontact
"Does the word 'duty' justify all of this?"
[this message was edited by feithecontact on Thu 7 Jun 07:04 PM]
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| | |  "Re(2):Xenogears Psychology"
, Wed 18 Apr 13:22
Wasn't Fei the last one cause oroboros was destroyed?
Ciao Ciao!
Fombo
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YouŽll never die again
YouŽll never be born again
YouŽll forever be stuck here in eternity"
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| | | "Re(3):Xenogears Psychology" , Wed 18 Apr 18:12
Yeah, he's the last...but I guess this is a "what if..." type of question.
"I didn't come here to be insulted" - Shinji Ikari
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| | "Re(1):Xenogears Psychology" , Tue 17 Apr 22:37 :
Fei's, Ego/Superego/ID disorder only occurred in Fei, no one else. Lacan did not have it, Kim did not have it, and Abel did not have it. Since none of these incarnations had the disorder, it was not passed on to Fei. During the game, Fei was cured of his peronsality disorder when they 4 personalities merged to create the one "True" Fei. I believe this happened at the WE, where Xenogears is formed, but I could be wrong.
If I am, Intanger will correct me...
Just watch XenoSaga suck...
[this message was edited by Neo~ID on Tue 17 Apr 22:39]
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| | "Re(1):Xenogears Psychology" , Tue 17 Apr 22:34
WARNING! SPOILERS AHEAD!
To better understand the response I am going to give, I'm putting the following info.
There are four personalities of Fei:
1) "The Coward" This is Fei's true personality. He could no longer stand the suffering created by the experiments he had to endure and put all the pain on the next personality...
2) "Id" ...in order to deal with it. Id was his second personality, and gains control of Fei's body when his metal energy is low. Memories are "divided" among the personalities in the pre-unified Fei; Id only saw the bad parts. That was what his perception of the world was based on, and that's why he wanted to destroy everything, including himself. The "Coward" saw only the happy, joyful times. He didn't face reality and withdrew into his memories, leaving Id in charge. Id fears and hates the coward; the two personalities blame each other for the loss of their mother, among other things.
3) "Fei" Fei's personality for most of the game. This is a third personality that was "created" by Fei's father, and is based on the "coward" personality. The coward's existance makes it possible for this form not to be overtaken by Id... This personality was formed by his experiences in the years he lived in Lahan. It is an underdeveloped personality and it shows at times. Papa Fong Wong created this personality as a temporary one until he had experienced enough so that he could become one whole. Id controls this personality's memories; it is Id's "subordinate".
4) "4th personality" A personality that appears late in the game. It is Fei's unwillingness to face reality. It is easily manipulated by Id. Not much else is known about this one.
Now, on to the question...
Only Fei's true personality is reincarnated. Lacan died, only his desires remained; that is Grahf. Lacan's spirit moved on to the next generation: Fei. The other personalities are a part of Fei, and are destined to become one with him one way or another. Based on what the game says, I think that the personalities caused by the disorders would travel with Fei to the next body unless they were seperated from the Contact somehow...like in Grahf's case. A personality can't "die", or cease to exist, because it is a part of Fei, and Fei must become one whole and one with the WE. Grahf says he is half of Fei, that is why he is able to be absorbed to buy Fei some time.
There would be no "next generations" after Fei, however; the cycle ends with him. I'm guessing he and Elly will return to the WE when they die, becoming one again.
It's late...maybe I'll elaborate later if anything I said was unclear... *falls asleep*.
"I didn't come here to be insulted" - Shinji Ikari
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| | | "Re(2):Xenogears Psychology" , Wed 18 Apr 18:06 :
Whuuuuupppss...That first sentence didn't correspond with the rest of the paragraph, sorry.  I was considering various things and changed my opinion as I was posting...and forgot to change all of it. I was going to post that I thought that only the true personality transmigrated, but then what would happen to the other personalities? The other personalities ARE a part of Fei; Grahf even said he was half of him. I think that all the parts of the WE are to be united again, but I'll have to play through the game again to see for sure. If that's the case, Fei can't have his personalities "die", so I assumed they would transmigrate as well. If all parts of the WE are not to reunify, there are just too many holes in the story to come up with a credible answer.
Who knows if Abel, Kim, etc. had similar disorders? The story doesn't go into great detail about them; maybe PW has some info on it? Lacan's disorder was Grahf; it was the personality that contained all his desires. In one part of the game, it shows Lacan as an "Id" look alike...but only for one screen.
Of course, I could be wrong...I tend to make mistakes quite frequently  Anyone really knowlegable in the XG field care to give some input on this?
"I didn't come here to be insulted" - Shinji Ikari
[this message was edited by Xenoholic on Wed 18 Apr 18:10]
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| | | "Re(3):Xenogears Psychology" , Wed 18 Apr 20:19
Lacan's disorder wasn't Grahf. They were two separate beings. No one had the personality diorders before Fei. They were created in Fei because of the trauma he went through as a child when he was abused to see if he is the contact.
"It would strike me as ridiculous to want to doubt the existence of Napoleon; but if someone doubted the existence of the earth 150 years ago perhaps I should be more willing to listen for now he is doubting our whole system of evidence."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein
::on a tombstone::
...here lies an atheist
...all dressed up and nowhere to go.
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