Watchmen

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February 2012

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Feb 14 - Valentine's Day

Guardian Angels
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Surtur's Fuge of the Damned
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[A.C]

Is this the best movie in recent history or what? I watched the "ultimate cut" and was suprised and impressed with what I saw and I usually can't stand superhero flicks. It kind of draged on towards the end but was still something I felt satisfied watching. It was amazing - iconic and iconoclastic, deconstructionist and revisionist, laden with allegory and allusion...the Evangelion of superhero comic book flicks! I had to read the graphic novel afterwards and then I was able to enjoy it even more watching it a second time. Who's seen it? What did you think?

[TheContact]

I thought it did an okay job of taking a remarkable graphic novel and translating it to the big screen.  It's an admittedly insane thing to try to do, as the source material is so rich and deep already.  I also thought the ending in the movie may actually have made more sense.

That said, as far as movies go, it wasn't all that great.  The acting was passable I suppose, though the scenes generally lacked much of the emotion that I remember from reading the original.  I think it's because, once again, so much of the Watchmen is about insane build-up, and a movie can only be so long.

[kostjan]

Watchmen was an interestingly (although not very originally) stylized movie, following, according to me, the very similar visual style of Sin City, 300, and Spirit... which are all originally "graphic novels" I guess. From plot perspective, it was interesting enough to hold one's attention, and the twist at the end was effective (for somebody who didn't read the comic, again).. All in all, an enjoyable but a tad long (3h+) ride that seems to appeal even to people who don't like super heroes...

As for best movie in recent history? Even though it's a vaguely defined time period and is mostly subjective, I'll adventure myself to say there have been much better movies out there in recent 5-10 years..

[Demerson]

...the Evangelion of superhero comic book flicks!

You mean, completely overrated and utterly pointless?

It was a pretty decent adaptation of what people thought could never be adapted to the silver screen.

[A.C]

You mean, completely overrated and utterly pointless?

I guess great art is lost on some people 

[Surtur]

I gotta kinda agree with Demerson actually, lol.  I don't know about completely overrated, I still like Eva, but my opinion of it has definitely gone down over the years.  The way it sets up all these mysteries and plot threads and then foregoes resolving any of them so that Anno can use the time to psychoanalyze himself instead, maybe does have some artistic merit, but... it's not good storytelling, lol.  If Lost ends with Jack Sheppard sitting in a chair in a dark room working out all his anxieties and phobias instead of answering any questions, there is gonna be some fucking hell to pay.

Ahem.  As for Watchmen (spoilers ahead), it is definitely the best adaptation that could possibly realistically have been made.  Ideally, though, it still could have been much better.  I am not a fan of the ending at all.  I wasn't a huge fan of the original giant squid ending either, but if you're gonna replace it with an ending that still doesn't really work (why would Russia make peace with the US after Dr. Manhattan attacks them both?  He's the US's toy in the first place!  Maybe they wouldn't outright attack the US, but they certainly wouldn't absolve them of any blame in the attacks either), what's the point.  Without any of the side-stories about the regular citizens of New York that were in the graphic novel, the impact of New York's destruction at the end also felt weakened to me.  But admittedly, that could also be because I already knew what was going to happen.  Also, the Ultimate Cut might have fixed that, I haven't seen it yet.  And my last major complaint was just that Ozymandias was poorly cast.  Matthew Goode is a good (no pun intended) enough actor, but he's too skinny and, frankly, puny-looking, lol.  Ozymandias should be someone at the peak of his physical fitness, he should be intimidating.

ALL THAT SAID, though it may sound strange to say it now, I did actually like Watchmen though.  I do want to buy the Ultimate Cut, once I have some money or the price goes down.  It is very well done in most other areas of the movie, visually pretty stunning (though I'm not a fan of Snyder's slow-mo stuff, at least not in this film), and when it doesn't try to stray from the graphic novel, it's pretty sweet.  But it could have been better.  Ideally.

But not realistically.

[A.C]

Evangelion has only gotten better over time for me, but not having the time to write up a long response (and given that this isn't the right thread for this), I'll simply quote one of Eva's biggest devotees and analysisists:

NGE is not a traditional anime series. In many ways, it breaks the conventions of anime similar to the way Kubrick broke the conventions of film with 2001: A Space Odyssey. At its heart, NGE is NOT a science fiction series with philosophic, psychological and symbolic covering, it's actually the reverse. The reason why NGE exists was so Anno could "burn his feelings into film". What he did was take an idea and create a representation of himself and his feelings, then shape an entire fictional world around it. All of those underlying ideas that become prominent during the later episodes are much more important than any established narrative or story. To understand NGE is to understand why it was created. But what makes NGE brilliantly transcendent is the layers to which it goes about this. NGE works almost entirely as allegory. Every fictional "idea" carries with it multiple meanings. Anno uses subtle techniques such as repeated visual and dialogical motifs to establish thematic links so the viewer can connect the dots and piece together what it all means. Many layers to NGE's world can only be discovered through multiple viewings and even then, discussion of it with others is highly recommended as it helps clear up things you will likely miss.

Anyway, as for Watchmen; I agree that it probably could have been even better; I agree about Ozymandias and I didn't think the nihilistic view of Rorchach vs the psychiatrist came across very well, and some of the violence was over the top when it should have been minimalistic instead. One thing the ultimate cut did was restore the side-stories about the regular New York citizens so that was fixed and I had an easier time following the black freighter segments than I did in the graphic novel where they kind of bored me. Although I didn't like the art of the comic; the Watchmen was only really meant to be a graphic novel. But I appreciate the movie a lot because without it I doubt I ever would have checked it out in the first place.

[Surtur]

some of the violence was over the top when it should have been minimalistic instead.

Yeah, that's kind of what I meant when I said that the movie is at its best when it doesn't stray from the book.  Night Owl and Laurie shouldn't be breaking people's arms so hard that the bones pop out of their skin.  Rorschach is supposed to be the ultraviolent one.  Then you've got things like the sex scene which went a little awkwardly long, or that moment from the opening credits where the old Minutemen are sitting around a table imitating the Last Supper for no apparent reason.

Just stick to the books, Snyder.  You're not smarter than Alan Moore.

[Demerson]

NGE is not a traditional anime series. In many ways, it breaks the conventions of anime similar to the way Kubrick broke the conventions of film with 2001: A Space Odyssey. At its heart, NGE is NOT a science fiction series with philosophic, psychological and symbolic covering, it's actually the reverse. The reason why NGE exists was so Anno could "burn his feelings into film". What he did was take an idea and create a representation of himself and his feelings, then shape an entire fictional world around it. All of those underlying ideas that become prominent during the later episodes are much more important than any established narrative or story. To understand NGE is to understand why it was created. But what makes NGE brilliantly transcendent is the layers to which it goes about this. NGE works almost entirely as allegory. Every fictional "idea" carries with it multiple meanings. Anno uses subtle techniques such as repeated visual and dialogical motifs to establish thematic links so the viewer can connect the dots and piece together what it all means. Many layers to NGE's world can only be discovered through multiple viewings and even then, discussion of it with others is highly recommended as it helps clear up things you will likely miss.

[A.C]

Ugh. I'm sorry Demerson, but if you don't have a point then please refrain from posting.

Then again, I wouldn't take your word for what makes something good:

I'm just glad there's a series nowadays which is shaped around the old-school idea of what good anime is.  Violence + good story + nudity = great stuff.  Like Ghost In The Shell!

 

[Demerson]

Ugh. I'm sorry Demerson, but if you don't have a point then please refrain from posting.

Then again, I wouldn't take your word for what makes something good:

 

But...I do have a point...

It's that, YOU'RE WRONG.

Btw, I still stand by what I said 6 years ago.  Awesome action + well developed COHERENT STORY + fanservice = quality.  I honestly don't think many people would disagree with me there.

I find it rather poignant that I was using GITS as an example both times.

[A.C]

I find it rather poignant that I was using GITS as an example both times.

Ghost in the Shell was not groundbreaking. It merely continues where other Science Fiction with social/philosophical commentary such as 2001 and Blade Runner left off but with more difficulty.

But art's greatness isn't measured on its level of difficulty - if it were, Joyce's Finnegans Wake would probably trump everything. But who genuinely loves reading that book?

I would say that Evangelion had some pretty great action, especially Asuka vs the Eva series. As for fanservice; lots of style, blood, nudity and visual flash doesn't make something artistic, it makes it stylish. But Evangelion's use of visual style both in the art, the editing, and in the storytelling aspect is consistently artistic. Ep. 4 is the perfect example of very artistic storytelling in how it uses minimalism, silence, and visuals.

I have the same criticism of Bebop; it's more style than substance as to where in Evangelion the style and form is almost inseparable from the substance which is always the mark of a truly great work of art.

It also comes down to understanding the craft. What you're doing is basically putting down 2001 or Persona because they weren't Blade Runner or Sin City and you didn't understand them; they didn't have awesome action or a conventional type of story telling. Your "point" is just the usual 'X person doesn't like/understand Y work/artist and feels the need to put Y work/artist down using rhetoric that reveals their immaturity and lack of artistic knowledge.'

Evangelion contains all of the elements of great art; great craftsmanship; a profound knowledge of the medium and its traditions; an ability to disturb/discomfort; an attempt to express something deeply personal and profound through the medium; and an ability to use formal devices to achieve desired effects. It utilizes every trick in the book all the while revolutionizing and innovating its own medium. It's both something very classic and something very radical; both something very intuitive but very intellectual. It's a grand statement about the simplest of subjects, and it pulls everything into its wake in its attempt to express itself.

[Demerson]

Shouldn't you be out on a ledge somewhere?

[A.C]

Attitude! Funny phrase! Shouldn't You be Out on a Ledge Somewhere? Make people laugh with this hilarious saying. For lack of cogent counter-argumentation and sincere desire to contemplate and debate opposing viewpoints, always reach for the quip!

[TheContact]

Though AC, didn't you find Eva to be awfully ham-handed in its climax and denouement?  Completely abandoning the narrative for some film-school student schlock about metaphysical resolution of internal conflict?

I also found the main characters have not aged particularly well.  Actually, I should say that the series feels considerably more palpable if you're going through some amount of teen-aged angst.  As an adult, the characters come off as overwrought and not really like people at all.  I have a hard time seeing them for being more than one-dimensional set pieces Anno uses to convey largely singular and simple conflicts.  Some of their conflicts are really truly poorly revealed too.

Also, the Judeo-Christian "symbolism" is used to incredibly poor effect, there for shock value and perhaps nothing else, despite being in use constantly.  It's like using a jackhammer to make intricate wood carvings.

Was it a ground-breaking series at the time it came out? Sure. But I don't think it stands up to the test of time.